opinions please guys.

Forum > General Discussion
Previous   1 2 3 4   Next
Sam
Sam (samuel l)
11 Jun 2015

Yep what a can of worms!! Simple really blush

1 if you want a truck to smash in the bush Patrol st......

well summed up!

every make and models going to have its pros and cons! 

Reply

Allan
Allan (allanmac)
11 Jun 2015

Barney, most will always say 'Cruiser or Patrol' but you stipulated you want something that is 'family friendly' & will tow a camper trailer as well as be a reasonable off roader that, most importantly, fits in your budget. Like a few others, would suggest having a serious look at the Pajero. Yes, the Cruiser/Patrol brigade will always bag them, but from what you are looking for, they will do everything you want. If you plan to do a fair bit of touring, a Paj or a Prado would be my 1st choice, but I suspect the Prado will be slightly above your budget. Cant believe how some bag the Prado, as they are a nice vehicle, but some just have a hate for IFS vehicles. Like every vehicle, they compromise in some areas, but if was going to be touring around the country, I would much prefer to do it comfortably in a IFS vehicle rather than a live axle 'truck'. I would also consider a late model LR Discovery, especially if you have some mechanical skills.

BTW, think your partner would probably be more inclined to drive a slightly smaller vehicle that has some nice 'creature comforts'.

Reply

Matthew
Matthew (discomatt)
11 Jun 2015

The Disco 3 does make a lot of sence in every area of consideration BUT they are a Landy with all the Landy quirks soooo, great car but get onto AULRO and have a good read and get a real world education, the Disco 3 section has days worth of good reading for anyone considering one. It will more than likely be my car of choice when its time to upgrade.

 

One thing to remember if  a Disco 3 breaks down in the middle of the dessert due to owner error and needs 13k worth of new computers EVERYONE says what a POS and there are articls all over the 4wding fraternity BUT if a Toyota needs 10k worth of injectors and diesel pump repairs its ok because they are great cars, and a LOT of Toyos do need it but only 1 D3 died in the outback and got all the coverage...

Reply

Tc
Tc (toncastr)
11 Jun 2015

 
Preferences
 
Preferences

ALLAN raises a great point about independent front suspension. Funny how thats pretty well where both the new Cruiser and Patrol have gone! 

It makes great sense that fixed axles pivoted on the opposite side gives huge wheel articulation on the opposite side (assuming the right set up). But on road????? And those bloody Range Rovers with their independent front and rear suspensions showed on the G$ challenge and Camel Trophy they are pretty strong as a non modified off roader. 

On the reliability of Land Rover's - it comes back all to why our good friiends the POMS drink warm beer. Because LUCAS designed their fridges! Electrics can be a big issue. But some of their engines even make Toyota's awesome 1HZ and Nissan's 4.2 Turbo Diesel look not so great. That TD5 would run on anything. And gear boxes - tough as nails. The BMW takeover introduced probably worlds best performing diesels and petrols out of Europe (great performance - but very sensitive to crap diesel - so not initially very good in areas were diesel quality was a bit suss). Ford's puma diesel was actually pretty damn good (designed & built in Europe - not US). 

Just watch the electrics. If its a 5 plus year old one - good chance any issues have been sorted. But check check check.

On ANY diesel - look for servicing history. There's a good reason the Jap imports are not a good option - good engines but due to registration laws putting huge premiums on older cars - the typical approach is little / no servicing in the first 5 years. Go to NZ and check out how big a percentage of their diesel jap import cars are now dying a relatively early death. 

Which then raises ENGINE questions. Basically - a diesel serviced well is a brilliant option - but if its not well serviced - you could be up for huge dollars. Which I suspect may mean considering a good petrol. Not as good on fuel economy - and very un Australian in 4WDing - but maybe a better option when servicing history is a bit questionable! The yanks seem to do pretty well with their petrol powered cars. 

On PAJ / PRADO. My wife LOVED our Pajero. It was a brilliant on road handler - almost at the Range Rover level. Off road on Fraser towing a Track Trailer - NO ISSUES. Ok - sitting just a little above the speed limit when my wife was asleep towing the trailer with the 3.0 Petrol did chew gas - but nevertheless very very capable. 

ON LR3 - yes Landy's are quirky. Drive a Defender as a 6 footer and you'll see why. But the LR3 is pretty well sorted. Take DISCO's tip on AULRO. But also look at UK - as they seem way more creative on solving the issues (and a large part of that is because they have so many more in circulation). A high spec LR3 was over 120k new - and those are selling now for under 20k. The same in a Cruiser will not have lost as much - but it does mean on a used car - you are getting way more car. 

If you are confused now - have a beer or two - sleep on it for a few days - take the really good ideas from all the suggestions - test a few options (including with she who must be obeyed) - and then narrow down to best option. Check servicing - one issue for Landys - not everyone knows what they are doing. Which is why I travelled a long way to Ritters - they are geniuses and not too expensive. Every major city has a Ritters!

 
Preferences
 
Preferences

 

 
Preferences
§
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
0
-
=
Backspace
 
Tab
q
w
e
r
t
y
u
i
o
p
[
]
 
Return
 
 
capslock
a
s
d
f
g
h
j
k
l
;
'
\
 
shift
`
z
x
c
v
b
n
m
,
.
/
shift
 
 
English
 
 
alt
alt
 
 
Preferences

 

Reply

Dave
Dave (Stoops)
11 Jun 2015

Yep what a can of worms!! Simple really blush

1 if you want a truck to smash in the bush Patrol st......

Well said Matt

Reply


Heather (V8Jeep)
11 Jun 2015

we have two v8 jeep grand cherokees a 2001 and a 2005 both on sequential injected lpg / dual fuel . the 2001 has over 250k on the clock and runs just as sweet as new, these cars will tow nealy 3500kg, we tow a 1600kg camper trailer with ease. the wj (2001) has a 2inch lift 32inch tyres and a snorkel and goes every where we want, it wont keep up with 4inch lift and 35inch tyres in deep ruts but it has more suspension travel than a lot and is legal and doesnt atract atention from the boys in blue. You can pick these up under $10k now and dont be put of by experts who dont know about jeeps, you will not have to spend money to make them perform they are not underpowered and if you look after them they will look after you.

Reply

Andrew
Andrew (Kimmdogg)
12 Jun 2015

Confused now Barney???

Reply

Matthew
Matthew (discomatt)
13 Jun 2015

I would say so!! I am confused and I worked on cars for 14 years so know my way around them and have been looking at different makes and models of 4wd's for 5 years and still can't decide what is best, they all have a lot of short comings!!

 

If only 1 manufacturer could build something with the designe and engineering of a Land Rover, the reliabillity of Toyota and the strength of nissan but hey that will never happen

 

Having said that though Toyota have major issues with pumps and injectors and the new patrols are spitting out rear diffs like there is no tomorrow

Reply

Tc
Tc (toncastr)
13 Jun 2015

 
Preferences
§
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
0
-
=
Backspace
 
Tab
q
w
e
r
t
y
u
i
o
p
[
]
 
Return
 
 
capslock
a
s
d
f
g
h
j
k
l
;
'
\
 
shift
`
z
x
c
v
b
n
m
,
.
/
shift
 
 
English
 
 
alt
alt
 
 
Preferences

So - let me add way more to the can of worms. But also maybe helpful in formulating your decision.

Its not just the brand & model you need to consider.

You also need to consider the engineers who designed it - and did the engineers also consider manufacturing process and build location. The Germans are typically seen within the industry by design engineers (product development) as the leaders in design engineering. Its one of the reasons why the G-Class Benz is so strong off road and still pretty good on road. Its also for this reason - the L322 was one of Range Rovers best (designed by BMW engineers with Land Rover expertise). LR3 was also largely BMW. And lots of BMW parts (and Bosch). However - it was built in Solihull. But a good design engineer will try to ensure that most labour related construction is not workmanship affected. However - despite best intentions of design engineers - the production line can see quality issues (e.g. first ML Mercedes built in Alabama. Second model the production engineers sorted the issues). With the Cruiser and Patrol - both designed and built on Japan - quality has been mostly good.

This build location does very much apply to Jeep. With Grand Cherokees - left hand drive are built in the US - but RHD were built in Austria (and the built quality is substancially better - arguably better than even the Japanese). Build location also applies to most of the 4WD utes - almost all are built in Thailand now (and quaility is very good - but not as good always as Japan). Adding an extra dynamic is WHO is the prime market? Patrol and Cruiser both look at the Middle East as the most important markets today. Hence today's engine offer. Nissan & Mitsubishi both looked at US as the main market for Pathfinder and Pajero (Montero) - and more recently - Toyota with Prado (Lexus GX), 

And another thing to consider - what are the parts that are sourced externally - and what is the quality of these. Other than engine and body - almost everything else in almost everything on the road is from external suppliers (Tier 1 for direct - tier 2 for minor components. Bosch, Delphi, Denso are all mostly Tier 1 - whereas say a wheel manufacturer or windscreen could be Tier 2). In recent times - profitability pressure globally has applied pressure to cutting costs at all suppliers. So reliability has suffered. Point in case - current recall of Takata Airbags (although the big issues for these were in hi humidity areas - and the company seen as hiding test results). Speaking of recalls - you will have seen more recalls over the last few years from some of the best - including Toyota - due to an increasingly demanding customer AND pressure on suppliers and the need to cut costs.

Yet another consideration - what version in the lifecycle of the model. The first model is usually the highest level of design spec - to ensure it hits the market well and is reflective of the designers direction. Subesequent models are usually cheapened (small example - L322 headlights - first one had two piece headlight / indicator assemblies and auto headlight adjusting - later one had single piece headlight and no auto adjust). But the last of a series typically have all design issues sorted - and often are speced up with latest big ticket items like engine. On my SL55 - the early engines were a problem - post 2004 they sorted it out (and on AMG's - in the US - some customers look for specific engine builders as they think better build quality or higher HP). Relevance to you - some engines are better than other (Toyota 1HZ and Nissan 4.2TD). Some gearboxes are better than others (read all the negatives on 200 series top gear on auto).

As if these things were bad enough on adding complexity to your choice - you also need to consider monocoque versus ladder frame chassis. Ladder Frame is typically better off road out of the box - and way cheaper to modify. Typically most ladder frame construction have live axles. Monocoque is stronger (check the 1950's Citroen Traction Avante - pushed off a cliff - and at the bottom - the engineers get in and drive away). Stronger also mean safer - a monocoque will dissapate the force of a side impact a lot better than a ladder frame. Monocoque is typically more reliable and predictable for crash engineers in front impact. The ride quality on road is better in a monocoque. 

LR3 and RR have had a lot of design engineering on ensuring off road in a monocoque is much better (some would say as good as ladder frame). 

So for you - if you want better on road performance and safety - I'd probably look at Pajero or Prado  - and as slightly left field option -- the LR3 (make sure you get the electronic spares mentioned on AULRO from UK). Watch out for diesel service history - otherwise consider petrol. 

Reply

Matthew
Matthew (discomatt)
13 Jun 2015

Not to be a smart ass or anything but a few slight corrections from the last post, IMO BMW did very few if no favours for Land Rover, they only had it for a few years before selling to Ford for $1.00, yes that is correct. The Disco 2 was the only Disco they played a part in and a few Range Rovers, not to sure of the exact models but know them if looking at them.

Disco 3 was a first of the new genaration and holy and soly Ford and built in a brand new state of the art factory that Ford financed, they spent billions and it did pay off with great cars and massive sales world wide, just look out for the D3 and D4 and they are every where in much higher numbers than most other big 4wd's. After the massive success of the new Disco and Rangie Ford made a massive profit and sold Land Rover to Tata the Indian truck company, time will tell if thats a good thing for LR or whether they will go backward.

Now to the Disco 3 chassis, it is without exception the strongest out of all 4wd's ever made and will more than likely stay that way. It is the only 4wd with a monocock chassis that also sits on a ladder chassis and absolute brilliant design that gives great strength and ridgity and safty.it is so clever or dumd depending on how you look at it  that to change any of the major engine or gearbox componants you have to remove the whole body of the chassis which only takes a good workshop about 3-4 hours and you then have a chassis with engine, trans, diffs etc sitting in a rolling frame with the body sitting on a hoist.

I wonder if all this will actually help anyone decide on what to get next...

Reply

Matthew
Matthew (discomatt)
13 Jun 2015

And in reference to the earlyer post about Jeeps, I agree anyone that says a Jeep is under powered has NFI, most of them have more grunt than the average driver would know what to do with

Reply

Tc
Tc (toncastr)
13 Jun 2015

Not to be a smart ass or anything but a few slight corrections from the last post, IMO BMW did very few if no favours for Land Rover, they only had it for a few years before selling to Ford for $1.00, yes that is correct. The Disco 2 was the on......

 
Preferences
§
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
0
-
=
Backspace
 
Tab
q
w
e
r
t
y
u
i
o
p
[
]
 
Return
 
 
capslock
a
s
d
f
g
h
j
k
l
;
'
\
 
shift
`
z
x
c
v
b
n
m
,
.
/
shift
 
 
English
 
 
alt
alt
 
 
Preferences

Hi Matthew. I think we agree that the LR3 is an awesome piece of kit. It would be my choice if I was Barney. 

On the LR ownership issues - the price I think stated in the Board report was Ford paid BMW was 1.8bn - but media reports it higher at 2.9bn. (http://money.cnn.com/2000/03/17/europe/ford/) .

My Range Rover L322 - being a AUG 2002 build its one of the very first to land here - and it has the 4.4 BMW engine (the diesel was also BMW). It also has most of the switch gear from the 8 series and almost all the electronics were BMW. BEHR was the tier 2 colling system supplier - and almost the whole interior was BMW sourced - including all the dash.

But the serious stuff - the chassis - was very much Rover / Land Rover design (BMW design engineers supposedly added quality to the build - not design) Speculation has always been BMW only bought LR for access to All wheel drive knowledge - which once they had it - they sold it to Ford having already used the knowledge they gained and built the X5 (the X5 shares many components with the L322 - including engines & gearboxes). Typically the design of most cars is 8 years out (reducing nowdays to in some cases to 5 with CAD modelling - but its still a long time). Given LR3 was launched 2005 - much of the initial structural work was during BMW's ownership. Changing engines is done late in the design process - and buying engines from a competitor is mega costly. BMW did bring their diesels - and as was mentioned - the tolerances on the german diesels are so tight - they do not like our aussie diesel due to its relatively poor quality (its for this reason BMW. MERC & AUDI all delayed their best diesels for some time).

So you are right BMW diesels were not a good addition for rugged Aussie off roads - but great for performance. And you are also right the IBF mix of Monocoque body and ladder frame for engine and suspension indeed seems a brilliant solution to on & off road.

Now - the $1 company - you are right - but for the hell of me - I can't recall who it was. I was thinking VW buying Rolls Royce to ambush BMW (nuh). So I have an evening of research.

And to Barney's D DAY - well if you do need LIFT - the LR3 has it standard. Good tyres make it awesome. But its all the electrics that you'll need to factor in. And I'd get the 4.0 litre petrol. Brilliant Ford engine!

Reply

Tc
Tc (toncastr)
13 Jun 2015

Not to be a smart ass or anything but a few slight corrections from the last post, IMO BMW did very few if no favours for Land Rover, they only had it for a few years before selling to Ford for $1.00, yes that is correct. The Disco 2 was the on......

 
Preferences
§
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
0
-
=
Backspace
 
Tab
q
w
e
r
t
y
u
i
o
p
[
]
 
Return
 
 
capslock
a
s
d
f
g
h
j
k
l
;
'
\
 
shift
`
z
x
c
v
b
n
m
,
.
/
shift
 
 
English
 
 
alt
alt
 
 
Preferences

Phew - I think it was BMW who sold ROVER to PHOENIX for 10 pounds - around the same time they sold Land Rover. 

http://www.minimania.com/BMW_sells_Land_Rover_to_Ford_

Reply

Matthew
Matthew (discomatt)
13 Jun 2015

as far as engine choice I would go diesel or the V8, the V8 is a sweet unit and in most driveing scenarios uses less fuel than the V6 and it is much cheaper to buy and maintain than the diesel. If the diesel is a must have for touring try and save a bit more and get the D4 with the 3l not the 2.7, its a much better engine with heaps more grunt due to better turbo set up, but going from 2.7 D3 to 3L D4 there is a big price jump.

Reply

Matthew
Matthew (discomatt)
13 Jun 2015

have been trying to remeber who the $1 deal was, I was sure it was LR, was it when BMW bought the company? Now I am just confused but thats OK I have had a few...

Maybe it was when Mercedes Benz sold Crysler, someone do some research, I couldn't be stuffed...

Reply

Previous   1 2 3 4   Next